General — BernieGunther

Philip Kerr has died

Moderators — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:08:02 +0000

We are very sorry to report here that Philip Kerr has passed away today, March 23, from cancer.

BERNIE GUNTHER – TIMELINE 1922 to 1939

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:16:12 +0000

1922 to early 1933
Bernie joined KRIPO after the assassination of Walther Rathenau on 24th June 1922. He joined as a constable and was a Sergeant on the Vice Squad prior to joining the Murder Commission in 1928. At the time of his resignation in June 1933 he was an Inspector (AQF).

1928
Solved the Fritz Gormann Strangler Case and established his reputation (TLFZ).

1929
He was knifed at the Hotel Adlon by a female jewel thief whilst assisting Frieda Bamberger, the house detective (AQF).

May 1931
Bernie was in Berlin and Charlottenburg investigation the murder of a communist spy, met Erich Mielk and Elisabeth Dresler for the first time (FG).

9th and 10th August 1931
Involved in a gunfight with the communists in Berlin, later in Hamburg following suspects (FG).

Early summer 1932
Working on the Case of Anita Schwarz, living on Dragonerstrasse in Berlin. Had the rank of Commissar (Inspector) (AQF).

End February/September 1934
Resigned from the police to work as the House Detective at the Hotel Adlon (MV). Which he did until September 1934.

September 1934
Working as the House Detective at the Hotel Adlon investigating corruption regarding the building of the stadia for the 1936 Olympics (ITDRN).

1934 -1938
Working as a Private Investigator from his offices on the 4th floor of Alexander Haus, Alexanderplatz. He was living on Trautenau Stasse at the time (MV).

1935
His daughter was born (ITDRN). He was working for Herr Minoux, spying on his wife Lilly (TLFZ).

Late July to Early August 1936
Working on the Pfarr Case (MV).

September to 26th October 1937
Visited Palestine and Egypt with Eichmann and Hagen on behalf of the SD Jewish Department (TOFTO).

January 1938
In Berlin working on the Captain Achim von Frisch blackmail case (TOSOS).

July 1938
Bernie was in Vienna where he saw Eichmann (TOFTO).

26th August to September 1939
Appointed by Heinrich as Ober-Kriminal Kommissar (Chief Inspector) in KRIPO where he remained until September 1939 (TPC).

26th August to 10th November 1938
In Berlin and Nuremberg investigating the Karl Maria Weisthor affair (TPC).

April 1939
Investigating the murder of Karl Flex at the Berghof in the Obersaltzberg of the Bavarian Alps, near Berchtesgaden, Bavaria. Awarded the Coburg Medal (PB).

Bernie's Girls

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:39:43 +0000

All the ladies that Bernie has slept with:

1919 - His first unnamed wife.
1931 - Elisabeth Desler - seamstress
1932 - Frieda Bamberger - house detective at Hotel Adlon
1934 - Noreen Charalambides - writer
1936 - Ilse Rudel - film actress
1936 - Inge Lorenz - reporter
1938 - Hildegard Steininger - stepmother of murder victim
1940 - Renata Matter - hotel maid
1941 - Arianne Tauber - cloakroom attendant
1943 - Dr Ines (Marianne) Kramsta - pathologist
1943 - Dalia Dresner - actress
1943 - Kirsten Gunther - second wife
1944 - Irmela Louise Schaper - signals officer
1947 - Veronika Zartl - prostitute
1947 - Lotte Hartman - croupier
1949 - Albertine (Engelbertina) Zehner - former nurse/kapo
1949 - Vera Messman - shopkeeper
1950 - Anna Yagubsky
1954 - Yara - housekeeper
1954 - Melba Marrero (Maria Antonia Tapanes) - terrorist
1956 - Anne French - writer

GREEKS BEARING GIFTS

Moderators — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:14:17 +0000

Available for preorder now.

Here is a review from the Washington Post: https://wapo.st/2GDWHMu

Bernie in the movies

jdarnold — Wed, 23 May 2012 14:28:26 +0000

Who would you have play Bernie Gunther in a movie series today? I'm surprised there aren't any plans for a Bernie Gunther movie. Maybe the whole "Nazi Germany" thing has film producers leery but still...

I wonder if Johnny Depp would work? Not that he isn't great in everything he plays, but he might be too glamorous for Bernie. Maybe Richard Kind, the friend in "Mad About You" and now plays in Leverage.

BERNIE GUNTHER – TIMELINE 1947 to 1956

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:28:42 +0000

1947
Working as a Private Detective in Berlin (AGR).

Winter 1947 to Spring 1948
In Berlin and Vienna working the Emil Becker case (AGR).

Autumn 1948
Bernie and Kirsten take over the running of Kirsten’s father’s hotel in Dachau (TOFTO).

August 1949
Bernie closes and attempts to sell the hotel and becomes a Private Investigator in Munich (TOFTO).

September 1949
The death of his wife Kirsten in Munich from malaria. Loses the top two joints from his left little finger (TOFTO).

October 1949
Wanted for the murders of Britta Warzok and Vera Messman in Vienna he is given new passport in the name of Dr Carlos Hausner (TOFTO).

October 1949 – May1950
In hiding having to pretend to be a war criminal, waiting for ship to travel overseas (TOFTO).

May 1950
Bernie sails to Argentina with Adolf Eichmann and Herbert Kuhlmann (TOFTO).

June 1950
He arrives in Buenos Aires, Argentina and meets Juan and Eva Peron. He is diagnosed with cancer of the thyroid which is operated on by Dr. Pack and cured. Resolves the Case of Anita Schwarz (AQF).

June 1950 to Summer 1954
In Cuba (ITDRN).

1951
Won boat "La Guajaba" in backgammon game (FG).

February to Spring 1954
In Havana Cuba meeting up with Noreen Charalambides and Max Reles again. Working for the Mob investigating a murder (ITDRN).

Summer to Winter 1954
Whilst sailing to Haiti Bernie is caught by the US Navy and sent to Guantanamo Bay detention camp. He is then sent on to Castle William, Governer’s Island, Upper New York Bay, USA. Finally he ends up in Landsberg Prison, Bavaria, Germany (FG).

Autumn 1954
Bernie is handed over to the French and is lodged in La Sante Prision, Paris (FG).

Autumn and Winter 1954
During his period Bernie is in Hannover, Helmstadt, Berlin and Gottingen, Germany. He has a new passport in the name of Sebastian Kleber but he also seems to have one in the name of Walter Wolf as well which he uses when he moves to the French Riviera (FG).

Winter 1954
In Berlin he marries Elisabeth Dresler (FG).

1955
Whilst living on the French Riviera, Elisabeth leaves Bernie and returns to Berlin due to his depression and not setting in France (TLFZ).

1956
Bernie is living in La Coital, near Marseilles on the French Riviera (TLFZ).

Summer 1956
Living in an apartment in the Quai de la Corderie, Villefranche- sur-mer. Working as a Concierge at the Grand Hotel du Saint-Jean-Cap Ferrat. Involved in solving the blackmail of Somerset Maugham and the British Secret Service (TOSOS).

October 1956
Still living in Villefranche, Bernie is blackmailed to work for Erich Mielk again. New passport in the name of Bertolt Grundgens. Travelled to West Germany, new passport in the name of Christof Ganz (PB).

Bernie slang

Polsixe — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 17:51:31 +0000

Nail = cigarette
Mouse = vagina
Slapper = prostitute
Lighter = pistol
Bull = detective
Beer token = warrant disk, police badge

Tom Hanks - HBO

DavidD — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:43:17 +0000

Whatever happened to Tom Hanks mini-series based on Kerr's Bernie Gunther books?

Field Gray Reader Reviews

Moderators — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:14:01 +0000

Use this thread to write your review and general opinion of Field Gray. Please give a warning if you are including major spoilers.

Searching for German 2nd World War murder mystery other than Bernie Gunther

daveartur — Thu, 18 May 2017 01:01:04 +0000

Help. I read a book last year set in wartime Germany about a civilian policeman who was teamed up with a Gestapo or SS (ex-Judge) to solve a series of murders involving the Jewish community , who were being rounded up and shipped out of Berlin(?). The novel ended in an abandoned slaughter house where bodies had been fed to pigs and where a guy taught young street kids martial arts. It was a much better read than it sounds from the above! I wanted to give it to a friend who loves the Bernie Gunther books but couldn't recognise the book from my vague description.
Can anyone help? Please? Thanks a lot.

Bernie and Heydrich

Gunthergirl — Wed, 27 Sep 2017 18:14:32 +0000

I don't know if anyone else thinks this and maybe I am stating the obvious... but don't they have rather bizarre relationship? In 'Field Gray' we have a flashback where Heydrich is actually rather nice to Bernie - in his own way:

"Gunther, did you know this man ratted you out as part-Jew?"
"I did not know that sir. And?"
"Here is his file. You are traveling with him in France. On a long road. A long, lonely road."
"Sir?"
"So many dreadful things can happen on a long, lonely road."
"Er..."
"Just take the damn file, Gunther, and make sure your gun is loaded."

When not terrorizing our Bernie, Heydrich actually seems to like him. Thoughts, anyone?

Prussian Blue pb giveaway!

Laura_QuercusBooks — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:25:52 +0000

Firstly, my apologies for intruding on this reader forum! However, as it is publication day here in the UK of Prussian Blue in paperback I thought it might be fun to offer a few hot off the press copies to x5 people who can correctly answer the following question:

Q: What was the name of Bernie’s pipe-smoking partner when he had a private detective business?

I wonder if this is too easy a question for a fansite?! But there you have it. Terms and conditions for the competition can be found here: http://crimefiles.co.uk/prussian-blue-competition-terms-conditions/

Best of luck,
Laura at Quercus Books

Cycling Tours of Bernies Berlin

JohnG — Wed, 05 Apr 2017 12:34:14 +0000

I'm sure there are many locations from Bernies time still standing. Philip himself suggests in 'Lady from Zagreb' that we take our bicycles on the S-Bahn and head off to Wannsee to see the Wannsee Villa made famous by Reinhard Heydrich. Could Philip be persuaded to have a literary event for his many followers, cycling Berlin to promote Prussian Blue, or whatever may come after.

Bernie's "Forrest Gump" moments

michael — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:04:21 +0000

For a "regular" person, It seems like Bernie meets with and interacts with a good number of the major players in Hitler's Germany. In one way it makes the books more fantastic and unbelievable, in another way, it makes them more interesting. Does Kerr go to far in this respect?

What other historical detective fiction do you recommend?

jobrien — Sat, 03 Mar 2018 21:38:41 +0000

I've also really enjoyed Luke McCallin's trilogy about an ex-Berlin detective serving as an intelligent officer in German-occupied Sarajevo during WWII and William Ryan's trilogy about a Moscow detective set during Stalin's Great Terror. Any similar recommendations?

Gunther #12

Traveller — Fri, 01 Apr 2016 14:30:11 +0000

At the conclusion of "The Other Side of Silence" the title of the next Gunther novel is revealed. It is "Prussian Blue", and it is scheduled for 2017. No other information.

Help us collect errors and inconsistencies

michael — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 14:58:11 +0000

As most readers will agree, part of the fun of reading a series is spotting continuity errors from one book to the next. And with historical fiction there's also the fun of spotting the occasional factual error. Maybe fans of mystery fiction are predisposed to enjoy this aspect as it invites them play detective themselves. We know we think it enhances the enjoyment of reading series fiction.

Help us create a detailed list of bloopers in the Bernie books -- both continuity errors and historical errors. We don't think there are very many, but there are a few, some of which have already been pointed out in this forum.

Dinah attending "Brown University"
the change in Bernie's age

And we'll add: the mention of Luna Park in The Pale Criminal (according to Wikipedia Luna Park closed in 1933) and the discrepancy in the date of Bernie's first wife's death.

We think there's a slight inconsistency is Bernie's WWI troop movements too -- maybe a WWI expert can weigh in on that.

If you come across anything that sounds wrong to you, please post here. Include the books involved and as much detail as possible. If there's a question in your mind about something you read but you don't have time to research it, post it here and someone will look into it.

Eventually we'll post a compilation of Bernie Bloopers with cross references. Happy reading!!

Gormann the Strangler

WML — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:39:34 +0000

I have not finished the entire series yet (on The Dead Rise Not), so this may be a moot question, but, the above case is referenced in almost each book and is the case that made BG's reputation..I wonder if PK has this story waiting in the wings?

BERNIE GUNTHER – TIMELINE 1939 to 1942

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:19:17 +0000

September 1939
Appointed Ober-Kriminal Kommissar (Chief Inspector), Section 5, RSHA when KRIPO is taken over by the SD (AGR).

8th November 1939
Part of the Elser Bomb Plot to kill Hitler (FG).

1940
Automatically inducted in the SS.

June 1940
Working in Berlin as Ober-Kriminal Kommissar (Chief Inspector), Section 5, RSHA.

June and July 1940
In Paris and the Prisoner of War camps in Toulouse, France (FG).

August 1940 to July 1941
In Paris (FG).

21st June to 7th July 1941
In Minsk as part of Action Group. In the Police (316th) Battalion attached to the 49th Army with the rank of Haupsturmfuhrer (Captain) (AGR). On the 7th July he asked for a transfer from Arthur Nebe because of the type of work involved (FG).

7th July to 31st July 1941
Working with Waldemar Klingelhofer advising on anti-partisan hunts (FG).

31st July 1941
Sent to Baranowicze (now Belarus) for transportation (FG).

August 1941
Sent to Lieutenant-Colonel Reinhard Gehlen’s Foreign Armies East Intelligence Section in the Ukraine (FG).

September 1941
In Berlin working on the Geert Vranken murder as Ober-Kriminal Kommissar (Chief Inspector), Section 5, RSHA. Purchased apartment and living on Fasanenstrasse (PF).

1st to 9th October 1941
With Heidrich in Prague and at his residence at the Lower Castle in Panenske-Brezany, Czechoslovakia, working as his personal detective on the murder of Heidrich’s adjutant. He visited the Circus Krone on 8th October (PF).

October to 28th November 1941
In Berlin working on the General Ernst Udet murder as Kriminal Kommissar (Inspector), Section 5, RSHA. Demoted following Prague activities and working nights (PF).

December 1941 to May 1942
In Berlin working nights as Kriminal Kommissar (Inspector), Section 5, RSHA.

4th to 7th June 1942
Investigating Heidrich’s death in Prague (PF).

8th and 9th June 1942
Returned from Prague with Heidrich’s body and attended funeral (PF).

June and July 1942
In Berlin working nights as Kriminal Kommissar (Inspector), Section 5, RSHA (TLFZ).

August 1942
Presentation at the International Criminal Police Commission (INTERPOL) Conference at 56-58 Grossen Wannsee, Berlin. Also working for Lilly Minoux investigating the Stiftung Nordhav Company (TLFZ).

1st September 1942
Appointed Oberleutnant at the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, Berlin (TLFZ).

What does Bernie look like?

aaronkent — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:34:10 +0000

Love these books, and love the Bernie Gunther character. An author can't hope to achieve more than readers developing a bond with a particular character. I think it's a mix of things where the author passes over some kind of threshold and you feel like this guy was actually living and breathing during the early/middle part of the twentieth century. (Hats off to Mr. Kerr) Strangely though, I have always had a hard time picturing or giving Bernie a face. The closest thing that comes to mind is Russell Crowe as Bud White in L.A. Confidential. Like Bernie, Bud is stoic and has a good heart despite the moral backwaters he usually finds himself sailing in. He also figures to be Bernie's height and weight. Anybody else have any opinions (doesn't necessarily need to be an actor)

Cheers

AK

link to a shot of Bud from the movie:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3863910656/tt0119488

mercedes model 190

lewington — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 08:49:34 +0000

In 'The lady from Zagreb' , Bernie drives a number of Mercedes 190's. I am not aware of any model 190 in the 1940's manufactured by Mercedes - the first model 190 was built in the 1950's I believe.

Bernie at the Berghof

Randini — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 22:51:51 +0000

Readers of "Prussian Blue" interested in further information about Hitler's alpine retreat, the Berghof, will want to consult the recent book "Hitler at Home", newly out in paperback. It's the last word on the house's history and the only source for a floor plan (main and second stories only). Many photographs, including a number in color. The book also details information about Hitler's Munich apartment as well as his quarters in the old Reich Chancellery in Berlin.

Quotes about Gunther

Traveller — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 04:44:42 +0000

“For five hundred years we’ve had democracy and peace in this town. Then the day after you show up we have three shootings in one day. That’s a hell of a coincidence, wouldn’t you say?”

A question from the understandably peeved Swiss Police Inspector Albert Weisendanger.

“The Lady from Zagreb”

BERLIN NOIR REVIEWS RETURNS!

reillylives — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 22:58:12 +0000

https://berlin-noir.blogspot.ca/2017/12/berlin-buffet.html?spref=fb

One more for the year! Taking a look at the 2nd book in the Gareon Rath series - the first Berlin Noir to make the jump from page to screen. Enjoy!

New Bernie Gunther - Greek Bearing Gifts

reillylives — Thu, 01 Jun 2017 05:48:50 +0000

New Bernie next April. Bring it on!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Greeks-Bearing-Gifts-Gunther-Thriller/dp/178429652X

BERNIE GUNTHER – TIMELINE 1942 to 1946

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:21:17 +0000

1st September 1942 to 28th February 1943
Working on unknown projects at The War Crimes Commission.

28th February to May 1943
From 28th February to 9th March Bernie was investigating the sinking of the SS Hrotsvitha von Gandersheim amongst other things, with the rank of Captain (AMWB).
On the 10th March he flew from Berlin to Smolensk (AMWB).
From the 11th March to 14th March he was at Dnieper Castle near Smolensk investigating the Katyn Forest Massacre and plots against Hitler and other murders (AMWB).
On the 15th March he flew from Smolensk to Berlin (AMWB).
From the 16th to 22nd March he was at the War Crimes Commission working on other investigations and meeting Goebbels (AMWB).
On the 23rd March he flew from Berlin to Smolensk in Goebbels personal Fokke-Wulf plane (AMWB).
From the 23rd March to May he was at Krasny-Bor near Smolensk investigating the Katyn Forest Massacre and plots against Hitler and other murders (AMWB).

June to August 1943
In June Bernie was at the War Crimes Commission working on paperwork connected to the Katyn Forest Massacre and other investigations (TLFZ).
In July Goebbels instructs Bernie to go to Croatia (Yugoslavia) to look for Dalia Dresner's father (Antun Djurkovic). He meets Dalia Dresner (Dragica Djurkovic) in Potsdam (TLFZ).
The same month he goes to Zagreb, Barja Luka and Jasenovac looking for Antun Djurovic (Colonel Dragan) (TLFZ).
He is required to marry Kirsten Handloser (1905-1949) (TLFZ). 1941 is also given as a date in A German Requiem.
He visits Zurich and Ermatingen, Switzerland and discusses the Nazi plans for the invasion of Switzerland (TLFZ).
On the 24th July back in Berlin Goebbels debriefs Bernie on the same day as Mussolini is deposed (TLFZ).
Between 25th and 27th July he is in a prison cell at Babelsberg, Potsdam police station (TLFZ).
Between 28th July and early August he is in the Gestapo prison in Lindenstrasse in Berlin (TLFZ).
In August he spends two weeks with Kirsten at Rugen Island on the Baltic Sea (TLFZ).

August 1943 to February 1944
Demoted to lieutenant, in Intelligence, with General Schorners's Northern Army in White Russia (AGR).

February 1944 to April 1945
At Konigsberg, East Prussia attached to the 132nd Infantry Division (FG).

30th January 1945
Girlfriend dies when the MV Wilhelm Gustloff is sunk by torpedoes (TOSOS).

April to August 1945
On the 9th April Bernie is taken prisoner following the surrender of Konigsberg, East Prussia to the Russians. He is taken to a POW Transit Gamp in Romania, possibly Secureni. He is then taken to a POW Soviet Labour Camp (Usman), Voronezh where he works in the sawmill (FG).

August 1945 to autumn 1946
At a POW camp at Krasno-Armeesk, between Astrakhan and Stalingrad, excavating canal (FG).

Autumn to December 1946
Sent to a POW camp at Johanngeorgenstadt, Czechoslovakia to mine Uranium (FG).

December 1946
Escaped from train on the Polish/German border (FG).

January 1946
In Berlin with Elisabeth Dresler (FG).

December 1946
Sent to Staaken, Berlin POW camp for returning Germans (AGR).

BERNIE GUNTHER – TIMELINE 1898 to 1922

GaryB — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:11:53 +0000

23rd May 1898
Bernie was born possibly in or around Berlin, but certainly in Prussia, his mother was from Konigsberg, East Prussia. In “Field Grey” he claimed to have been born in 1896 further confirmed by being 47 in “The Lady from Zagreb”. But he was 38 in the first book “March Violets” and 43 in “Prague Fatale” and I have relied on these earlier novels.

1902
He visited the Konigsberger Tiergarten Zoo in Konigsberg, East Prussia (TOSOS) when visiting his grandparents. The Zoo had been opened in the year of Bernie’s birth.

1914
He obtained his Abitur (school certificate) and would have gone to University if not for the war (PF/PB), so probably in 1914.

1914-1918
Bernie fought on both the Turkish and Western Fronts in WW1, he finished with the rank of Sergeant (MV). He was promoted to Sergeant twice, he lost his stripes the first time for criticising his officer (PB). He won the Iron Cross 2nd Class and the Great War Participation Medal with swords and wounds badge (FG).

August 1914
He volunteered for the army in August 1914 against his father’s wishes (AMWB). After three months training he was sent to the Turkish Front sometime in late 1914. He was probably at his full height of 190 cm (6 feet 2 inch) when he volunteered, blue eyed and blonde.

1914-1916
Whilst in Turkey he was bitten by a mosquito which left a circular smooth area of skin on his face (MV).

1916
He was shelled in the trenches and this was more likely to be on the Western rather than the Turkish Front. This was also probably where he received the small scar on his forehead caused by a price of shrapnel (MV). He was possibly at the Battle of Verdun (21st February to 18th December 1916) as he mentions the battle in a desire to return to this area (PB).

1916-1918
During this time he bayonetted a Canadian soldier (PF).

23rd August 1918
At the Battle of Amiens he shot an Australian in the Battle of Amiens. Bernie is either mistaken about this date as the main battle was over by this time or it happened when the Germans were in a defensive position (AQF).

December to spring 1919
Bernie would have been demobilised from the army during this period.

Mid May 1919
Bernie met his first wife, who was never named, but was born in 1898 (MV).

Summer 1919
He married his first wife at the Dankes Church (Church of Thank), Wedding Platz, Berlin (FG). They honeymooned in Konigsberg, East Prussia, they stayed at his grandparent’s villa on the Upper Pond (OSOS). He purchased an ALBA 200 motorcycle soon after his marriage as his mode of transport.

13th March 1920
Bernie’s first wife died of Spanish influenza on the same day as the Kapp Putsch (MV). He claimed at various other times she died in 1918, December 1920 and 1922.

1920-1922
He worked as a Civil Servant (MV).

Tom Hanks on Philip Kerr and Bernie (brief mention)

vonderlasa — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 00:34:09 +0000

See the October 11 article in the New York Times,"Hollywood's Most Decent Fella on Weinstein, Trump and History" by Maureen Dowd

Photography exhibition at Tate, Liverpool

Elaine256 — Mon, 09 Oct 2017 20:43:15 +0000

There is a photography exhibition that is currently running until 15th October At the Tate, Liverpool called Portraying a Nation: Germany 1919 - 1933 with photographs by August Sander and paintings and drawings by Otto Dix. It deals with the Weimar Republic leading up to the rise of the Nazis. Bernie Gunther would have felt right at home! I recommend it if you get a chance especially the photography of Sander which covers different aspects of German society.

A women in Berlin

Stuart1960 — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:33:23 +0000

Just finished this. Came across it in a charity shop, clear eyed, non sentimental diary of a woman in Berlin when the city fell. Having read a few books of the 'Berlin Noir' genre I think this was possibly a big influence for their authors.
Similarly a few years ago came across 'Alone in Berlin' as ex-library stock, now a film. I found it a slog to start with but then it caught me and off I went. As you're on this forum I suspect both of these will interest you.